Monday, January 29, 2007

(Marvelous?) Marvin

During the AFC Championship Game I said something that riled a few people up. The words I used exactly were "Marvin Harrison is overrated." Obviously I was wasted and rooting for the Patriots at the time. Everyone got so up in arms about it that I might as well shut up, even though I knew Harrison had never came up big when the Colts needed it in the playoffs. Afterwards, I researched Harrison and a few other relevant receivers and found the information I was looking for. Harrison is having a Hall of Fame career, but he has continually not shown up when the playoffs rolled around. Up until this Super Bowl, one might sat he is the receiver equivalent of the quarterback that has thrown him the majority of his touchdown passes.

What would you define as overrated? In my mind there are two main examples of an athlete being overrated. One is the old cliche of a player continually is considered to be underrated by so many people, that he/she is thus overrated. When I proclaimed that Harrison was overrated, I was met with responses of how he was underrated. Harrison has been overshadowed by contemporaries such as Randy Moss and Terrell Owens, receivers with similar statistics that run their mouths much more in the press. As a result, the "cool" thing to do these days in the media is to label Harrison as underrated compared to these loud mouth receivers that receive more attention than quiet Harrison.

The other common example of an overrated player is someone who puts up a bunch of great numbers, but does not show that same production in the most important of situations and games. While I can not give every example from regular season games where Harrison made a great catch, I have a good sample size (13 games) of Harrisons' production, or lack there of, in the playoffs. Below is a comparison of Harrison and his contemporaries, as well as other top receivers from the past 25 years.

Player Gms Catches Yds/gm TDs 100yd gms
Marvin Harrison 13 55 59.7 2 1
Randy Moss 8 35 90.4 9 3
Terrell Owens 10 50 70 4 3
Torry Holt 10 47 63 4 2
Hines Ward 10 57 76.1 8 4
Jerry Rice 28 151 80.2 22 8
Cris Carter 14 63 61.4 8 2
Michael Irvin 16 87 82.1 8 6

The numbers pretty much speak for themselves. Now you can blame Harrisons' QB if you want. We all know the playoff problems that he has had. The fact remains though that Harrison has the worst numbers of any of these receivers, with a couple dwarfing him. Not only that, but almost every other guy listed has a signature moment in the postseason. Most noticeably, Hines Ward and Jerry Rice each have Super Bowl MVPs, while Owens had a legendary Super Bowl effort in a losing cause. Maybe Harrison is waiting for the Super Bowl to show his true playoff greatness...

Maybe I am totally of base. Maybe Harrison is not "overrated", but instead just not "clutch." All I know is that I do not care about the numbers that a player on my team puts up. I never cared about Michael Strahan breaking (if you call it that) the season sack record. I cared about Strahan sacking Trent Dilfer in Super Bowl XXXIV. If I am a Colt fan, this game is where guys like Harrison and Manning define their careers. The numbers are great on paper and fun to watch, but the Super Bowl is where they will be remembered.

Bring on the hate....All I know is that in a big spot, I would rather have any one of those guys split out wide over Marvin. Show me something this Sunday and I can change my tune....

STKAFI

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can see where you are coming from by presenting these numbers. My response is that Starvin Marvin is a great receiver. I don't think he's overrated nor underrated. As far as receivers go, as unfair as it might seem, most of the time you can only be as good as your QB. If your QB can't get you the ball (which has been the case with Manning in the playoffs over his career), your numbers are going to be skewed. As is the case during the regular season for Harrison, his numbers might be considered inflated because he is playing with one of the greatest QB's of all time.

Bottom line is Marvin is a great route running, has tremendous hands and is always aware of where he is on the field. I can't ever remember watching a game where Harrison had trouble getting open, or even dropped a sure pass. (I think dropped passes is a very good indicator of how good a receiever you are). Yes his numbers in the postseason are low, but to counter that, his regular season numbers are fantastic. I would take Harrison over Moss, Owens, or Ward any day of the week. And I don't think he's overrated or underrated, he's just Marvin being Marvin.

IceCold said...

I respect everything relaxo said, excpet if you have never seen a game where marvin did not get open. I guess you did not watch his last two games. According to the "game film" article on ESPN.com insider the Ravens and Pats single covered Marvin all game and locked him down, ie did not let him get open. Just reporting the articles that non-insiders have not read...

IceCold said...

7. Will Harrison emerge?
Marvin Harrison is one of the all-time great NFL receivers, but he has been shockingly quiet in the playoffs. He was basically single-covered by the Chiefs' Ty Law, Baltimore's Chris McAlister and New England's Asante Samuel. Defenses are getting physical with him at the line of scrimmage, and they are committing safety help over the top to the other side versus Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark.

Excerpt from the article

Anonymous said...

1. What does "basically" single-covered mean? That doesn't sound like they are 100% going single coverage on him.

2. Besides the Pats game where Manning threw for 349 yards, he threw 3 picks against the Cheifs (and looked bad doing it), and went 15-30 for 170 yards and 2 ints vs. the Ravens. I don't see how this is Harrison's fault and it would be hard to rack up any numbers for a receiver with those numbers for a QB.

Yes, he might not be as wide open as he normally is, but teams are focusing to stop him which opens up the other receivers for Manning.

Also, his numbers may not be good, but Harrison has caught at least 3 passes in every playoff game he's been in and had under 40 yards only once. These aren't eye opening, but he never gets shut out and is always a factor on the field whether he's catching TD passes or being the main focus of the other teams defense (which he ALWAYS is).

I bet he will have at least 6 or 7 catches for 80-100 yards and 1 TD in the Super Bowl, then this discussion will be over.

Anonymous said...

Owens a legendary superbowl performance? Honestly you should be on suspension for a week for that comment.

The Pats did what they do best and gameplanned perfectly against the McNabb-T.O connection. They allowed mcnabb to throw underneath all day to TO w/o giving up a big play. Those numbers were skewed that game...

that being said...

CUT THAT MEAT! CUT THAT MEAT!

IceCold said...

Nine catches for 122 yards on one leg....Just because he is a douchebag, does not mean you should not give the guy respect. The QB meanwhile was having an asthma attack or something when he was suposed to be leading his team to victory...

Anonymous said...

Like i said the Pats gameplan was to allow McNabb to throw underneath to T.O. all day hence the 9 catches and 122 yards. The word legendary cannot be included when a guy does not score and the team does not win. Nice call on McNabb but who was throwing T.O. the ball?

Legendary is Ron Burgandy

IceCold said...

He still got 13 yards a catch, which means he was breakin tackles, or not all the throws were underneath. Legendary may be an overstatement, I was jus trying to make the point that he has signature playoff moments. Not only that Super Bowl, but 1998 Divisional Playoffs against the Packers, when he caught a 30 yard TD pass with less than a minute to play to win it for the Niners.

Relaxo...you can defend Starvin Marvin through his regular season stats, but his postseason stats are pathetic. Look at the different QBs Randy Moss and Hines Ward had throwin to them in those playoff games...Peyton has still managed to win about six playoff games without an impact from Marvin.

Anonymous said...

That's because Peyton also has Wayne, Clark & Co. to throw to. Moss is tough to argue with because he was trying then and hasn't tried since, I hate that guy. Hines however plays for the Steelers which are known for their running game, especially last year with Fast Willie and the bus so teams were putting 8 guys in the box every play to stop the run and wanted Ben to throw the ball and beat them that way. Defense's #1 priority against the Colts is to stop Peyton and Marvin and let them run, you never see 8 guys in the box against the Colts.

Anonymous said...

That's because Peyton also has Wayne, Clark & Co. to throw to. Moss is tough to argue with because he was trying then and hasn't tried since, I hate that guy, he is terrible. Hines however plays for the Steelers which are known for their running game, especially last year with Fast Willie and the Bus so teams were putting 8 guys in the box every play to stop the run and wanted Ben to throw the ball and beat them that way. Defense's #1 priority against the Colts is to stop Peyton and Marvin and let them run, you never see 8 guys in the box against the Colts. Come on dude, Hines Ward?? Give me a break...

Anonymous said...

Whoops...posted that twice somehow...just trying to get my point across.

JWS said...

Suns streak is over!
Carter beats Jazz on deep deep 3!
Nuggets lose at home to Bobcats
Kobe invading NY and Boston the next two nights!

Where's my NBA chatter?

If I'm a defensive coordinator guys like Owens and Randy keep me up at night. They are able to make certain plays that are not "coverable". They are big and physical. Some plays it doesn't matter how well you cover them they will outjump you.

Harrison succeeds on timing and route running. Stopping him is never an "impossible" task. If you know what route he is going to run, or if you throw off his timing by jamming him at the line, he can be contained.

Does this make one better then another? To me it means Harrison needs a better QB then Moss or Owens. But you also can't fault him for having that QB.

Anonymous said...

It's impossible to say because Harrison and Manning have been together their entire careers. I would be interested to see Harrison being thrown to by someone else.

I can guarantee you this though, if Harrison's QB was a combination of Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter, he would have more than 42 catches for 553 yards and 3TD's.

IceCold said...

Ur prolly right relaxo....ur forgetting that the point of this entire discussion tho was that marvin does zippity doo da in the playoffs...The only playoffs that Harrison has had an influence on is fantasy playoffs..

Anonymous said...

icecold-
let's say marvin goes out catches 8 balls for 100 yards and a score. his stats will still be worse then almost all the guys on that list. does that one big performance out of 14 games mean that he's now a clutch performer or not overrated?

JWS said...

Kobe out vs the Knicks tonight!

IceCold said...

YES, I bigtime moment/performance get the "monkey" off your back. Owens' stats are not that good in the postseason, but as a result of that Super Bowl performance and the catch against Green Bay his status as a bigtime performer is cemented. All you need is to do it once, and people will shut up.

Anonymous said...

what the hell is the nba doing suspending kobe for that especially since he comes to NY once a year... even Pop said it was not intentional. Kobe gets no love.

Anonymous said...

You are right Nillz, however, with regards to Owens' and Moss' postseason success, Moss had a healthy, pro-bowler in Culpepper throwing to him, and the references to Owens good playoff games he had McNabb and Steve Young. I'm not saying that they haven't performed in the playoffs because they certainly have, but it's not like they've had Joe Schmo throwing to them either.

Bottom line, if Harrison doesn't perform in the SuperBowl it just makes your argument stronger. If he does however, your points all become invalid.

The NBA SUCKS! Go Huskies! Trying to grab that last spot in the Big East tournament!

IceCold said...

I admitted from the beginning that Harrison can shut me up in the Super Bowl (I am purposely already shuting up on Manning until after).

I hear there are still tix available for Kobe tomorrow night in Beantown. Apparently no one wants to see a team lose 12 in a row....

F the HUskies, go Johnnies!!

Anonymous said...

I want to see the C's lose 20 in a row ...get the most ping pong balls in Secaucus and then get the 3rd selection in the draft. Wait didn't this happen the last time a big time Center prospect was coming out

Anyone thinking of Big East tourney tickets?

Anonymous said...

I would take Hines Ward in a tight spot over Marvin right now. I trust Owens as a better receiver than harrison but not this year. No way to tell what Moss is still capable of.

thats right, i provide you no evidence, just FACT